HKBWS Forum 香港觀鳥會討論區 - Powered by Discuz! Board

Subject: Japanese Murrelet ???　冠海雀 ??? [Print This Page]

Author: wleepoin Time: 5/05/2007 20:41 Subject: Japanese Murrelet ???　冠海雀 ???

05/5/2007
Near Nine Pin Waters 果洲水域

We do not think it is a Ancient Murrelet because the size of the bill is much larger and is blue in colour not pinkish. Also there is a slight hint of long thin crown feathers and some white shows behind the eye. Since we do not have much experience with Murrelets. Please correct us if we are wrong, thanks.

PWMK
:?:

Author: kmatthew Time: 5/05/2007 20:53

I agree...the bill is too long for an Ancient. The slight hair crest also suggest a Japanese.

Author: calexander Time: 5/05/2007 21:28

The posture (upward tilting head and long necked posture) and the bill look so close to Japaneses Murrelet. Also the eye is set quite backward on the head. On the 2nd photo, there is an obvious "crest" - which is a tuft of black feather covering the white crown, also the pale throat extending all the way to the upper chest (In summer plumage, ancient murrelet has black throat). All these point to Japanese Murrelet despite the feather looks worn out or polluted.

Image Attachment: japanese murrelet c.jpg (5/05/2007 21:28, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5653
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=861

Image Attachment: Japanese Murrelet 3.jpg (5/05/2007 21:28, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5725
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=862

Author: John Holmes Time: 5/05/2007 22:56 Subject: More Photos of today's Murrelet

Just add two more shots... hope to see more shots from others!

Place: Waters between Waglan Island and Po Toi
Date : 05/5/07

Here is a link to a photo by Pete Morris on OBI
shows the bill colour and size on a healthy bird

http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/search.php?p=2&action=searchresult&Bird_ID=1009&Bird_Family_ID=&pagesize=1

Image Attachment: JMurreCrest070505-jgh.jpg (5/05/2007 22:56, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5580
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=865

Image Attachment: JMurre070505-jgh.jpg (5/05/2007 22:56, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5581
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=866

Author: wleepoin Time: 6/05/2007 07:48

Thanks Matthew & Alex for their comments, the bird was rather tatty and some of the flight feathers seem to be worn or missing.

PWMK :-)

Author: ddavid Time: 6/05/2007 14:36

Having looked at a few other photos of Ancient & Japanese Murrelets, I agree that the shape & colour of the bill clearly indicate that the bird we saw yesterday is Japanese and not Ancient. There are head shots of both species in the hand on page 167 of Seabirds of the World: A Photographic Guide by Peter Harrison that show the differences in bill shape and coloration.

dave

Author: calexander Time: 6/05/2007 16:28

For expert on Japanese Murrelet, I recommend to refer to Mr Koji Ono 小野宏治 (ono@seabird.go.jp). You may also visit his webpage www.seabird.go.jp. He was really helpful in telling us how to go to Kadogawa to see the murrelet in 2001, despite we were strangers.

I am really excited to notice this sighting in Hong Kong. Actually for Japanese Murrelet, the breeding season is late Feb to May. The largest breeding colony is in Kadogawa, Miyazaki Prefecture in Kyushu (~3000 birds or 1/2 world population). Even for Taiwan, there seems just only a few sightings. This bird, if proven to be a Japanese Murrelet, is likely strayed due to injury or disease.

Author: Tony Time: 6/05/2007 20:13

Sorry, just got back to my hall to process the photos. Here are some more photos for the murrelet that seen yesterday.

Image Attachment: murrelt03.jpg (6/05/2007 20:13, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5390
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=875

Image Attachment: murrelt02.jpg (6/05/2007 20:13, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5412
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=876

Image Attachment: murrelt01.jpg (6/05/2007 20:13, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5435
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=877

Author: Tony Time: 6/05/2007 20:17

I think the murrelet near Po Toi yesterday was quite different to the one I took in April. the bill was abosolutely different, blue grey compare to pink of Ancient Murrelet. the head of Ancient Murrelet is larger and flat. The colour is that bird is ligher than an Ancient Murrelet. But I am not keen on murrelet, maybe we can send the photos to Japanese experts for identification.

Image Attachment: ancient murrelet2.jpg (6/05/2007 20:17, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5364
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=878

Image Attachment: ancient murrelet.jpg (6/05/2007 20:17, 0 Bytes) / Download count 5396
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=879

Author: calexander Time: 6/05/2007 21:04

[quote:af9367a4a4="htunhei"]I think the murrelet near Po Toi yesterday was quite different to the one I took in April. the bill was abosolutely different, blue grey compare to pink of Ancient Murrelet. the head of Ancient Murrelet is larger and flat. The colour is that bird is ligher than an Ancient Murrelet. But I am not keen on murrelet, maybe we can send the photos to Japanese experts for identification.[/quote]

Please also note the black throat of Ancient Murrelet in summer plumage. Also on a lateral view, the eye of the Ancient Murrelet is situated slightly anterior to the midpoint between the forehead and nape, while for Japanese Murrelet, one have an impression that the eye is posterior to this midpoint in the head. I hope you can understand what I mean (please check the second photo from PWMK, 1st photo from myself, 2nd photo from John and 3rd photo from Tony)

Author: tgraham Time: 6/05/2007 21:37

Who is going to send a selection of photos to Mr Ono in Japan as suggested by Uncle Tall.

It will be interesting to see his opinion

I'm currently sharpening my pencil

HK Twitcher

Author: Tony Time: 6/05/2007 21:41

[quote:9cf6e16348="calexander"][quote:9cf6e16348="htunhei"]I think the murrelet near Po Toi yesterday was quite different to the one I took in April. the bill was abosolutely different, blue grey compare to pink of Ancient Murrelet. the head of Ancient Murrelet is larger and flat. The colour is that bird is ligher than an Ancient Murrelet. But I am not keen on murrelet, maybe we can send the photos to Japanese experts for identification.[/quote]

Please also note the black throat of Ancient Murrelet in summer plumage. Also on a lateral view, the eye of the Ancient Murrelet is situated slightly anterior to the midpoint between the forehead and nape, while for Japanese Murrelet, one have an impression that the eye is posterior to this midpoint in the head. I hope you can understand what I mean (please check the second photo from PWMK, 1st photo from myself, 2nd photo from John and 3rd photo from Tony)[/quote]

Thanks Alex

Author: wleepoin Time: 6/05/2007 22:24

Hi all,
We will try to send these images to Mr Koji Ono and keep you posted on this. Thx.

PWMK

Author: John Holmes Time: 7/05/2007 07:33 Subject: Murrelet identification

Hi all,

Just to let everyone know we have also posted a request for information to the Oriental Birding E-group, which is often a good source of information. You can join the group if you have not done already by sending the following:

orientalbirding-subscribeATyahoogroups.com (replace "@" for "AT")

John and Jemi

Author: tmichael Time: 14/05/2007 20:01

Does anyone know of any developments in this gripping little drama, potentially permanently gripping for those not on the boat that day!

Mike Turnbull

Author: wleepoin Time: 15/05/2007 21:37

We have tried to ask for help from several overseas birders who has much
experience on the MURRELET. And thanks to Geoff Welch's help,
we were able to have some helpful and interesting comments
from Nial Moor & Nick Lethaby of 'Birds Korea'.

Quote from Mr. Nial Moores in reply to Geoff Welch's email :

"....While I have lot of experience of Ancient, I have seen very few
Cresteds in recent years, and to be frank, I am not certain of the id of
this bird. I can fully understand why people believe that it could be a
Crested, based on bill colour and most especially on the apparent vestiges
of a crest (not something I have ever seen on Ancient). Perhaps this really
is enough to clinch the id?

However, there are several things that do worry me, a lot, (and others I
presume?), especially for a territory first..

1) The crest here is perhaps not where it should be on Crested?  Crested
have long fine feathers going back from the fore-crown, not perhaps from
the bushy supercilia or from the upper nape (as apparently here). Could the
crest simply be a product of a very tatty plumage?

2) The bill. Although the bill looks long, this could perhaps be partly a
product of the extreme wear on this bird, exaggerating bill length?    In
addition, while the bill appears blue, this could also PERHAPS be a
part-product of ill-health or light. We do very often see birds here with
greyish or grey bills anyway (not the bright, pale blue of Crested, and
certainly not the vivid pink of the images on the HK website!), and it is
hard to judge the bill tone well from these images (though the impression
is paler than you would expect in Ancient).  It seems too that the bill
looks fairly blunt, shows a contrastingly pale tip perhaps, and also dark
on the lower mandible too. Several close up images of Crested eg on Google
Search show the bill to be long, slightly decurved, and rather fine-tipped,
with (in adults at least) no dark on the lower mandible.  Questions to
check with those that know Crested very well: Does the bill shape really
match Crested  much better than Ancient? Do Cresteds often/ever show much
dark on the lower mandible?  If so, the bill would be no problem.

3) The tail. It  often looks contrastingly dark in AM, like in the HK bird,
while the tail often looks (is?) paler-grey basally in Crested.
4) Head pattern. This is what first really concerned me, is that much of
the vestigial head pattern looks rather closr to Ancient to me than to
Crested.

Based on limited field experience and on discussions with others, Crested
appears to have no very clear non-breeding plumage (just a reduced crest,
perhaps): is this right, Nick, or is there much seasonal variation? Either
way, Crested effectively has a black head with a white "head-band",
broadest on the nape or very least nape-sides.  Ancient has clear
non-breeding and breeding-plumages as you know. In
intermediate-plumaged  AM (present any time between Feb-March and May),
birds often show some white indent in front of and behind the eye and a
black chin (without the full black bib and head sides of Crested). Worn
birds can also show a fairly strong hint of an eye-ring (like this bird),
something that might be shown by Crested as well (though I have no evidence
of that in either descriptions or images)?

5) Nape, Most significantly to me I guess, ALL AM show a black nape at all
times of the year.  ALL Crested, on the other hand, should show either a
white nape (breeding) or at the very least, broad white nape-sides (said by
some to be non-breeding plumage). This bird appears to show an all-black
nape.  Why? In specimens Nick, do any of the Cresteds show a black nape
like this bird seems to do?

I can understand why dark parts will bleach and wear paler, but why would
the white nape or nape-sides of Crested seem to wear to solid black as
shown in the shot from the rear while the bird is attempting to fly?

An odd bird, for sure.  Considering the relative status of the two species,
I personally would plump for caution, and unless better information comes
to light (eg Cresteds can indeed show a black nape), put it down either as
an Ancient (?) or an indeterminate due to plumage condition. "

Quote from Mr. Nick Lethaby in reply to Mr. Nail Moores's email :
" ..... I have photos of some winter specimens of Jap Murrelet. It's
conceivable that they are first winters and that Japanese doesn't have a
non-breeding plumage. However I was able to find late May specimens of
adults with white appearing in the throat. This to me was strongly
supportive of Jap Murrelets having a adult non-breeding plumage. ....  The
bird is so ratty that I agree that it's hard to be sure but I favor
Japanese at this point...."

"..  I have attached some specimen pics of alternate, basic (so about this
term but winter isn't really appropriate as I think Jap Murrelets are in
basic from July-Jan), and transitional (from late May). I think this shows
the face pattern is OK but also shows that the white crest/nape area is
still pretty obvious in basic Japanese. ..."

alternate basic

winter

summer

Also, through Mr Simba Chan (Birdlife in Japan), we were able to
contact  Mr Koji Ono and he had made a very brief comment.  At first
diagnose he belief this bird is NOT a Japanese Murrelet.  He will give
supporting reasons later on, so right now we're still waiting for his
decisive answer.

Finally here is a drawing found by Geoff which is quite useful to ID between
Ancient and Japanese Murrelet.  It is from a book, 'The Auks' by Gaston &
Jones, OUP, 1998.
1)  is Ancient,
2)  is Japanese, a is adult summer, b is adult winter.
The text goes further to say ''in winter (Japanese) probably hard to
separate from Ancient Murrelet, except for deeper bill and paler legs".

I would say the Hong Kong bird does show some small white marks just behind the eye, and the second of Nick's basic photos also only shows a small white patch. One of the problems is the poor plumage condition of the Hong Kong bird, very difficult to see what the plumage really is.

Hope that we can expect more information and comments from the OBC E-Group when John & Jemi return.

More Comments and discussion are most welcome, thanks.

PWMK

PS. We must thank Geoff Welch, John & Jemi, Nial Moores, Nick Lethaby, Simba Chan, Uncle Tall and Mr Koji Ono for their generous help.

Author: calexander Time: 17/05/2007 00:18

Thanks Peter and Michelle for all the communication and summary.

As for the comment from Moor "....Crested effectively has a black head with a white "head-band", broadest on the nape or very least nape-sides." I cannot totally agree. In my observation, Japanese Murrelet has a white crown with a tuft of black feather growing from front to back. When this tuft of hair-like feather lies flat the head, it gives an impression of black head with white band. When this raises up, this is the "crest". The white crown extends low down to the nape, but such low extension may be exaggerated by the head-up posture that these murrelet like to keep when afloat.

Hope my attached photo will explain this point more clearly.

To be true, we are a bit "exceptional" because our experience with Japanese Murrelet is far more than the Ancient. We are certainly not in an objective position to give a call. We hope just to share a bit of our observation of the "normal" Japanese Murrelet in breeding season (Feb to May)

Image Attachment: Japanese Murrelet 4.jpg (17/05/2007 00:18, 0 Bytes) / Download count 4468
http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/attachment.php?aid=957

Author: John Holmes Time: 30/05/2007 09:50 Subject: Mystery Murrelet

Returned to HK yesterday, sorry for our late response.

The only comment via the Oriental Birding E-group was kindly provided by Nick Lethaby, who wrote as follows: -

"I have spent a fair bit of time looking at specimens of these birds as
well as having seen a few dozen Japanese Murrelets in the field. One
feature that hasn't been mentioned is that on Japanese Murrelet, the
black at the base of the neck is more solid and extends a little on to
the mantle. In addition, Japanese Murrelets typically show extensive
black on the wing coverts whereas Ancient Murrelets are much greyer here
(although a few can be similar to Japanese in appearance). Although your
bird is very worn and messed up, it does seem to show these features as
well as the others that have been mentioned."

Other remarks by Nick Lethaby (via Birds Korea) have been reported by Peter and Michelle Wong above.

I suggest to wait one or two more weeks to see whether Mr. Koji Ono from Japan has any further remarks.

For the record, I'm still keen on Japanese Murrelet, despite the fact that it is very, very rare compared to Ancient. Due to the poor feather condition I think we'll struggle to differentiate most of the important plumage features, but the presence of the remains of a crest - which quite clearly comes from the forecrown - and the bill colour and shape, make me favour Japanese.

John

Welcome to HKBWS Forum 香港觀鳥會討論區 (http://www.hkbws.org.hk/BBS/)